'63 Chevy step side

[hotrodpc]

What happens when you past the stroke of the engine?---i was referring how fast they wine out. And we talking about all things being equal. Not what you can get one or the other "to do". And their linitations. Lets say the 454 max rpm is 5500 before shifting and the 350 is 6500 and yet they both have equal cams in proporation to each other.Yea you can make a 454 pull this... and you can make a 350 to outrun a 454 now if you go a beefing each one up there stroke limits them and on a 454 its 5800 and on a 350 its 7200-how much gain can you make in rpm diffrence with 1400rpms in between them and the 350 is shorter stroked so it gets to that 7200 faster---right? Ok lets just say the 454 has more torque but does it have enough to make up for the 350s 1400rpm over it and quicker wineing out...

Theoreticaly yes, the BB should get to its max rpm quicker since its lower if I understand what you are asking. And it has the torque to get their quicker too. But I assume you are talking engines sitting on a stand since weight of vehicle, wind drag, transmission type, stall, gear ratio etc etc all play a part. Not sure where you're going with this though. If you're talking from just ideling and stabbing the throttle, might bea close tie, but who is gonna split hairs in inths of second when its getting down the track wins races, not reving your motor.

I was saying if you take two identical vehicles with the same wind drag,transmission stall gear ratio etc---horse power an torque play hand in hand to make "power"-torque is not rated till you get to a certain horse power. We can't say the 454 wines out quicker because it has a lower red line if the 350s crank is turing at a faster rate. Sure the 454 red line is 5800 according to its stroke and the 350 is 7200 according to it stroke an anything past those red lines are making the engine do what it can't. If the 454 just hit its red line and the 350 had just hit its red line then the 350 got to 7200 when the 454 got to 5800 an there is 1400rpm between the two an there is alot of horse power an torque in those 1400rpm that i don't think a 454 can overcome within its 0 to 5800red line. The advantage the 454 has its a power horse and can "be made" to go up alot higher in horse power and torgue-but the 350 can two. Im saying the 350 would win in a even race because it will wine out faster because of its crank and generate more horse power an torque through how fast it wines out and its red line. Yes the 454 has a 100 more ft. lbs. of torque over the 350 But that 1400rpm diffrence between them allows the 350 to be able to genrate around 140 more horses and you know it takes less torque to move at righer rpms-the 454 would get a 350 off the line because of its torque but mid range an top end the 350 will pull out ahead. The 350 has won more races in competion than any engine and there is a reason for it. Think of a motorcycle an a car racing---that motorcycle is a higher revving engine an has less torque an horse power-sure it has a weight advantage but when you do the math an match them together lb for lb and everthing even the bike will win because its capable of wineing out faster and able to go up higher rpm. Don't get me wrong im not brow beating the 454 because if you want 700 horse power...the 454 can do it with ease and thats how it can beat the 350 by simply horse power and torque that it is capable of producing-lets say the 350 limit is 500 and the 454 is 700 there you have it not only would the 454 have the 350 off the line but all the way through because it "overpowers"the 350. The cam for a 350 that gots it about maxed out with hydralic lifters is darn near a rv cam on a 454 in comparisen-no not saying you can put a 350 cam in a 454 either. Yes torque moves a car but you have to have the horse power to get that torque a going for it to do any good.I wasnt talking about the two engines sitting on a stand-i was talking about a realistic applation between the two. The 327 has a 7500 red line an it wines out so quick you better start off in second or you might just red line. I have a engineer bud who is a old timer who use to build engines for racing pacificly and this info is what he past along to me. Said 454 are for pulling an 350 is for racing an choice of race engine was the 327 because of its stroke. But like you said throw money at anything and it outrun anything. What im saying is if your going to throw money at anything throw it at the one that all things being equal will win which is determined by stroke. If you took a 454 crank and a 350 crank and matched them in how many turns they would make in a race you'd be surprise how many more turns a 350 will make in comparison to the 454 which makes up the torque and horse power over the 454. Then see at what point in the race they red line and shifted and who got there first...lets just say if the 350 turned twice as many times as the 454 then thats twice as much horse power an torque put out which overcomes the 454 one turn---an again we are talking about all things being equal with the set up of the vehicles...This is just my opion-no brow beating intended to the 454-i have them both and wouldnt give up either.Just not understanding clear about the bigger is better unless we are talking about the ability that they are "able" to do i.e.500 for the 350/700 for the 454 thing.If the crank is turing faster so is cam and everything else in the 350...The 454 will need that 700 horses to beat a 500 horse 350. And yes i know a 454 can be made to have more than 700 horses and the 350 more than 500 those are just a figure in comparison to be able to compare the two.If you take a stock 350 with 160 horses and a stock 454 with 250 horses by the time you get to there peak in what they rated in horse power and torque the 350 will seem to act like it has "70 more horses" over the 454 at that point because of how much faster it got to its peak power stock in comparison to the 454 "if" the 350 had turn twice to the 454 turn. And that would mean the 350 would be producing 30% more over the 454 which would mean when the 350 was at its red line 7200 the 454 would be at about 5000rpm and 800rpm more to go to get to its redline in the which the 350 would be in its 2nd gear and 800 rpms up in its power band by the time the 454 shifted into 2nd and the 350 would be always 800rpms up higher in rpms through the whole race in its power band.Maybe all this math an calculations arent exact...but simply if during a race if the 350 would turn 2 times to the 454 one time then stock 350 that would have a 160horses would be as if it had 320horses in comparsion to the stock 454 250 hoses one turn---yes i know one turn of each engine doesnt mean it produced said amout of horses-but at some point the 350 will turn 2 times to the 454 1 time and at that point the 350 will have 320 horses and the 454 250 horses ratio-if in a race only the 350 just gets to turn 2 times to the 454 1 time then it at one point past the 454 250 horses by a 320 horse out put an that facter alone diffrence is 70 horses whitch means it would be almost a second faster. For the 454 to beat the 350 the 454 has to make up 75horses in its one turn to the 350s 2 turns.Maybe i don't know what the heck im talking about-im not a engineer nor a mathattenchion it just seems this way by what i see in this puzzle...if you take the 350 up to its red line 7200rpm and it was able to hit that 7200rpm in all three gears(1-2-3)you would of hit 7200rpms 3 times while the 454 would of hit 5040 rpms those 3 times so7200 times 3 equals 21600 and the 5040 times the 454 would of hit in those 3 times would be 15120 now if you subtract 21600 an 15120 you come up with 6480. The 6480 "is"what the 350 would have over the 454 which would mean the 350 would of had been almost through a entire gear and moved on to its next gear before the 454.OOOO!!! LOL! I JUST FIRGURED IT OUT!!! the 454 puts out more than the 350 and about 8 times more in this case if you take a 160 horsepower 350 to 7200 an a 250 horsepower 454 to where they would be in a race with the 350 being at 7200rpm the 454 would be at 5040rpm-now if take the 160 times it by 3 red lines of 7200 for the 350 and 250 times 3 hits at 5040rpms you come up with 3780000 horses output BUT you do with a 160 at 3 hits of 7200 and you come up with 3456000horses output an the diffrence between them is 324000horse output in "favor" of the 454. Sure the 350 will wind out faster and get to its next gear faster...but the "brute force"of the 454 will beat it.The 454 puts out more horses and therefore more torque which means it has more power even over the advantage the 350 has over it.Like Hot Rod said...-so sorry so long.

That's a whole lotta over analyzing right there. We know there is no substitue for cu in. Although, I am one to sometimes wonder if that isn't t ALWAYS true So that said, all that up there is kinda moot. So if you are asking which motor will be faster. Yep the 454 will.

 

[63chevystepside]

What im currently checking is when the 350 is at 7200rpm the 454 is at 5040 so if you subtract these two numbers 7200-5040 you get 2160 rpm diffrence between the two. While the 454 (250hp) is putting out at 5040rpms times 3 hits at 5040rpms in a race it equals 3780000 the 350(160hp) is putting out at 3 hits of 7200 which equals 3456000 and the diffrence between these two is 324000 with this number being in favor for the 454. The other two numbers between those two rpms(5040 for the 454 an 7200 for the 350) is 2160 in favor of the 350 so how much does this 2160rpm diffrence in favor of the 350 help against the 454 324000 favor-i know its all jerky math so bear with me-it means the 350 will hit its 3456000 at the rate of 33% faster than the 454 will hit its 3780000. So if you add 33% to the 160hp 350 its 533 hp advantage through how quick now apply that to the 454 advantage and you get who would win-brute force or horse power-that 533 hp advantage the 350 has also comes with more torque which you put hp an torque together and you got power that is "how fast its done". ok 533hp(33% rate for speed in out put of horses for the 350) vs 324000(for the 454 horse power) the 454 hits that 324000 through 3 times which is 108000 so it has to do 432 rotations with 250 horse power out put to equal that.If you take 160 hp an add 33%(actually its 33.33%) to it you get 213hp which still puts the 454 in favor by 37hp. So conclusion looking past the jerky math an...the end result is there is about 35-to 40 hp the 454 has over the 350 "roughly" imo and it'll turn that hp actually where the 454 would seem like it reached its mark faster than the 350. No matter how you build either one from there the 454 has it over the 350 from the get go-unless you start talking about diffrent types of 350/454...

 

[63chevystepside]

yea-kinda firguring it all out now an why so. Sorry for thinking out loud.

 

[63chevystepside]

the thing that has me kinda is the 350 gets to its red line 33.33% faster than the 454 but the 454 brute power is still some % faster through its hp. But we are only talking about 35hp an yea thats enough to win.

 

[63chevystepside]

Then from there if you start firguring "the way" you want to build them...you can build a 454 to do 5800rpm an staying within its stroke ability but you can't build a 350 past 6500 without changing to solid lifters... so it turns that 33.33% advantage the 350 had to help make up the hp the 454 has already over it less. But they both are limited to what hydralic lifters can do in them any ways right? which is about 350hp

 

[63chevystepside]

If thats the case both limited to 350 horses becuse of the hydralic lifters then the 350 would have the advantage by being 33.33% faster in the use of that 350hp. Im not sure what the limit is with a 454 with hydralic lifters but im "guessing" its the same as the 350 is.???

 

[63chevystepside]

If thats so then the 350 would feel like it has 466 hp in comparision to the 454 350hp. That is being able to get to the 350hp quicker and feeling like its there the whole time...which in turn makes it feel and act like it has 466hp when it dont-in a comparsion between these two that is.

 

[66nova]

I feel like I know a thing or may be even 2 about Gen 1 SBCs and Big Blocks and I just read through the last page. I'm more confused now then ever.

If you want my honest opinion (notice, I'm not waiting for an answer and just giving it) you are over analyzing things. There are way too many variables for the calculations above to be correct. Yes stroke is important when it comes to how fast a given motor will wind, but it is not the half of it. Head flow, cam, intake, rod to stroke ratio, etc, etc, etc all play just as important role.

As a general rule, there is no replacement for displacement. Obviously the rule has its limitations. This is assuming you're trying to get everything you can out of a specific engine. And when you are comparing BBC to SBC you cannot forget about the extra 150-200lbs for the big block. That is approximately 0.2sec in the 1/4. It takes another 35-50hp to make up that difference.

With old iron heads, BBC don't traditionally love to twist, but don't think for a second they won't go to 7000 and say "is that all you got, give me some more".

I would have to see your two options (head, cam combos, compression, etc) along with future plans, before making a judgment on which combo to go with.

 

[63chevystepside]

I feel like I know a thing or may be even 2 about Gen 1 SBCs and Big Blocks and I just read through the last page. I'm more confused now then ever.

If you want my honest opinion (notice, I'm not waiting for an answer and just giving it) you are over analyzing things. There are way too many variables for the calculations above to be correct. Yes stroke is important when it comes to how fast a given motor will wind, but it is not the half of it. Head flow, cam, intake, rod to stroke ratio, etc, etc, etc all play just as important role.

As a general rule, there is no replacement for displacement. Obviously the rule has its limitations. This is assuming you're trying to get everything you can out of a specific engine. And when you are comparing BBC to SBC you cannot forget about the extra 150-200lbs for the big block. That is approximately 0.2sec in the 1/4. It takes another 35-50hp to make up that difference.

With old iron heads, BBC don't traditionally love to twist, but don't think for a second they won't go to 7000 and say "is that all you got, give me some more".

I would have to see your two options (head, cam combos, compression, etc) along with future plans, before making a judgment on which combo to go with.

I understand your not waiting for a answer thats kool an your just giving your opion which is important to me-that all being said...Yes there is so many diffrent varables-heads-cam-exhaust-yr...i was trying to just compare a 454 stock with 250hp and a 350 stock with a 160hp with equal everything else at first then realized the 454 is better because it overpowers that 350. Then took it to the next step with hydralic lifters thrown in on the mix. Your right the weight of the said 454 would lose what gain it had by its weight. Yes i hear of guys building 8000rpm 454 to an yes they will do it but once you past 5800rpm with a 454 you past its stroke ability so anything above 5800 starts to make the firing be for it at the wrong place and the higher you go up in rpm from there puts the pistion farther in the wrong spot which will start to make it have a sezear in the bottom end-thats just my opion. Hey guys im not offended to be schooled an i for sure don't want anyone to be p at me either-im just one of those guys i guess that has to have the provingness of it an yea i can seem to be a pain in the butt for it-but in no way no ill meant to any-i kinda look at u guys as a extension of my family-ok bros! Im antilizing this just because i do happen to have them both and gathering up info before i make a choice while going with a good foundation to build on...I have the 350 that lacks about 500-700 to have it done the way i want and i got about 2500 to go on the 454. so im considering of doing the 350 to put in the 63 stepside for now and holding off on the 454 til later.

 

[66nova]

Is it a 350 or has it been bored or need bored?

If you take a portion of the $2500 that would need to go towards the BBC you could build a nice little 383 stroker. A set of vortec heads and a mild/moderate cam.

I had a nice mild 383 in my Nova to start with. It would run on 87 octane all day long, a comp 292 cam (hydraullic flat tappet) and it would run high elevens in my Nova pass after pass with 3.23 gears.